Livestream transcript session 1

Unknown Speaker:

Introduce Terry to everyone. He is the general manager of statewide operations for corrective services New South Wales. And he's across all of our custodial procedures and policies. So if you've got any burning questions, please feel free to ask him.

 

Unknown Speaker

Good morning, everyone. Can you hear me?

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: Yes, we can hear you. Thanks. We've just got a question. Um, are there any limitations for buyups? (*inmate store)

 

Unknown Speaker:

Yes, there is a monetary limitation and there's only approved products on buyups that we have. So there's a list of approved products that go through. Like they have to comply with course with health and safety conditions like we can’t have frozen food, we don't have refrigerated food. So there's that side of it. There's also we don't provide any products that can contain certain things such as yeast, so they can't make brews (*alcohol) and also anything but maybe packaging glass and that type of thing that can be used as a weapon. So there's a whole range of restrictions around that in saying that there we've got a fairly large list of products that are available for the inmates. So they're they can spend up to $400 a month. And that's the amount of money that can go into their bank accounts and they can spend that on via telephones and a range of other things.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Fantastic. Thanks, Terry.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Any other questions, guys?

 

Unknown Speaker: 

Q: We've received another question. And it is do you know if this differs from the juvenile jurisdiction? Did you even have the same limitations for by ups as adults in custody?

 

Unknown Speaker:

I don't know.  I'm not familiar with the juvenile system at all.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Yeah. I'm not either. We're actually completely separate entities. So sorry, we can't answer that question for you. The other question we received, is there a mentoring program and then for individual prisoners that show aptitude for certain things.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Um, we have corrective services industries, where we employ inmates and of course, the focus there is on meaningful work and work that will prepare them and give them skills for when they're released. And so while may not necessarily be a mentoring program, they certainly have corrective services overseers officers who have certain trade qualifications, who are in charge of workshops and that type of thing. So they would certainly help them with their, again, formal qualifications or in upgrading their skills.

 

Unknown Speaker

Fantastic. Thanks, Terry.

 

Unknown

Q: What sort of work is there available for inmates to do visit paid work or just voluntary?

 

Unknown Speaker:

We have paid work. I'm not up to date with the current pay rate, but there is a pay rate. And there's a broad range of work available from bakery to construction work. And electronics. One of our big programs at the St. Helier which is a minimum security Correctional Center, where we have a building program or construction program for Aboriginal inmates where they actually pre assemble affordable housing for remote communities. So that's one example. We have a bakery out at Long Bay. And then as I said, this electronics works from assembling headsets to these print shops. There's also tailor shops where we may depending on the contract, make sheets, all types of things like that. So there's a broad range of work.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: Fantastic, thanks, Terry. I think one of the students is sending another one. In the older video that was showing do inmates have to qualify for specific jobs that will assist them? I'm not sure if that means back in the 1950s, that they have to qualify for specific jobs or if they have to qualify for specific jobs today.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Today, inmates are placed across if they got certain skills, they will be used. I mean, we have inmates, you know, they have trade qualifications from the outside will certainly use as when they come into custody. And like, in the community, some people have, you know, better suited to different type of work, and that's taken into consideration.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: Thanks, Terry. And then another question we've received is how often are inmates able to communicate with their families?

 

Unknown Speaker

They can telephone them. There's no limited, if they’ve got money on their account, they can telephone them. They have a list of approved numbers and they can find those. Anytime that they're outside of their cell and they're in free time. There is a limit on the time, it's six minutes. And there's also a limit in between a time limit in between the phone calls, so that allows other inmates to actually have access to the phones. Visit if you're a remand inmate, you are entitled to three visits per week. And then if you're sentenced inmate, it's two visits a week you can have

 

Unknown Speaker:

Awesome, thanks, Terry.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: Is there any pre release program for inmates to get jobs before they are released?

 

Unknown Speaker: 

Yes, we do have a pre release program running out of silverwater (*correctional centre), and this is inmates when they come down to a C three classification which is the lowest or the least restrictive classification. And they can have daily to go out and either work or they can go out for education purposes. So there's that because that's at the very end of this sentence, and they have to meet very strict criteria for that to happen.

 

Unknown Speaker 

Q: how often are inmates allowed out of their cells, and are there specific timeframes in the day that they are allowed out of their cells?

 

Unknown Speaker

Yes, it varies greatly from a maximum security right down to minimum security, minimum security have wider length, lengthy time out of cells, however, we do have a KPI where a time out of cell, there is a maximum security, we look to have the inmates out of cell for as long a period as possible, maximum security at maybe from eight in the morning until lunchtime, and then again, from one till three or something like that. But then, as we get down through security ratings to medium to minimum, the lower your security rating, and the center, you go to a particular like a farm (*type of correctional centre) or something like that, then the length of time is much longer. So it varies from center to center, and the security rating of the center.

 

Unknown Speaker 

Q: Fantastic. Thanks, Terry. And we're getting close to 10am. So we'll ask one final question. And then we might just get organized for the q&a session with the inmates. And the final question we have is are there any programs that help inmates deal with childhood trauma or mental health problems?

 

Unknown Speaker 

It's a little bit outside my area. That's the program's area, but I'm coming from that area. There are a number of programs that address a large number of issues, but I can't I'm not able to speak really about what programs are available. But that's another area. Sorry about that.

 

Unknown Speaker 

That's That's fine. Thanks, Terry. But there are definitely programs available to those inmates. So thanks very much for your considered answers. Terry. And we now invite McQuarrie Correctional Center to switch on the video and unmute themselves.

 

Unknown Speaker 

Hello, McQuarrie Correctional Center and inmates. This is Rebecca from head office. We have a whole range of students with us today from Western Sydney University. And we have the tutors and director Sodor and Ashlee, who are going to ask you some questions. So I might now hand over to the Western Sydney University lecturers who can kick off the questions.

 

Thank you, thank you for making the time for us. We have a list of pre prepared questions that we can ask you. And there'll be some ad hoc questions as well.

Q: And the first question we've got on our list is what issues are important for you inside prison so for example, health well being safety and family.

 

 

Unknown Speaker 

Yeah. Hello, my name is (________). I think the number one, probably the number one concern for most of us, is our safety and safety of our family as well. Yep.

 

Unknown Speaker 

Anyone else want to answer the same question as well. It's like, this is like a tutorial at university.

 

Unknown Speaker 

So just a bit of a background about what we've spoken to the boys about. Yeah, these guys are actually quite used to having a chat to various people about, you know, their circumstances, what have you the good mix of people from all walks of life. As a matter of fact, some very articulate others, you know, quite nervous to be talking to you guys. We've got no issues with that, guys. We'll just answer quite quite honestly. So if you if you want to stray a little bit from the script of the question, that's fine.

 

Unknown Speaker 

Okay, oh, what I might do is look at what, what questions are coming up. We do have a list that students submitted to us beforehand. And we just thought we'd go through those questions to start off with I think, look, I think we're all nervous as well. So if that puts you at ease, this is a really unusual encounter for us too. It's a fantastic opportunity. But yeah, we'll just go with the questions. We've got to begin with. I, anyone else wanted to comment on that last question?

 

Unknown Speaker 

Yes, my name is (_______), why I would have thought it depends on the age group of prisoners from then the issue could be variable. For example, for the aged people end up in jail, then their original well being, and health, of course, would be at the forefront. And then the same thing it comes together with that. Yep.

 

 

Unknown Speaker  27:33 

Q: All right. Well, I'll move on to the next question. Then. The next question that students asked was being in prison, do you feel connected or disconnected from important people in your life? How do you maintain connections? Or how do you seek to reconnect when you get out?

 

I'll probably get talking a bit as we go forward. So connecting with them, with family is relatively easy, because we can pick up the telephone. The issue is, we're in an environment where there's a lot of uncertainty. And it's a very, it's like a bubble. So its more in a little bit different here at Maquarie, in general terms in prison, you get swallowed up by this bubble. And that creates a little bit of a wall and a barrier, mentally to you wanting to come make contact with your family. So that that can be a very serious issue a little bit different here at Maquarie, where the conditions are a lot better. And you really don't have that barriers to giving a family a call in connecting.

 

Unknown Speaker  29:12 

Thank you. Thanks. Anyone else?

 

Unknown Speaker  29:20 

Another issue of being stay connected with family here at Macquarie we are allowed to access the phone until 10pm. And maybe many people in here are able to have some sort of homework with their children after their school time. That's very crucial if you want to keep maintaining connection with your family, as you know very well, being connected to the family is not just a matter of getting on the phone and having a chat. Those sort of emotional, emotionally connected and to be able to maintain that, uh should I say that father and son, the father and daughter tie through the homework every day, or at east a couple of days a week, and will be very, very helpful. And besides that one of the positive things that has come out of this COVID-19 is at this Macquarie center, we have the video call that's been able to communicate and saying, see our family members smiling or even anxious of the situation, but at least we stay connected, connected more closely than just a bad phone call. So that's the positive thing of this killer COVID-19 pandemic.

 

Unknown Speaker  30:45 

Thank you so much.

 

Unknown Speaker  30:48 

Would anyone else like to come in?

 

Unknown Speaker  30:56 

I pretty much covered

 

Unknown Speaker  30:58 

pretty much covered it.

 

Unknown Speaker  31:01 

Q: Question on the chat, actually someone's followed up from an answer. When you say you are concerned about safety, what do you mean? What does safety mean?

 

Unknown Speaker  31:25 

When you first show up at jail, you don’t know what you’re walking into. Especially your first time coming to jail, you don't know what it's about, you don't know what you're walking into, I guess like, and how difficult it can be or how easy it can be, you don't know who to hang around with, you don't know who you're gonna be what type of person you're going to be when you're first actually walk in as well, l because you have to sort of put on a front, or a facade so to speak, you know, to act tough, or, you know, if someone sort of puts any pressure on, you know or tries to take advantage of you, the old preying on the weak. And then, and then you got to try and pick friends as well. Ones that you're going to get along with and similar personalities and, and what not, yeah.

 

Unknown Speaker  32:17 

when you come to jail, you fall into one of two categories, generally, predator or prey. And that there's a lot of fear involved with that. I think most decisions you make are based on fear.

As you get used to jail life, that attitude can change a little bit. But when you're actually out in the yard, mixing with other people for five or six hours a day, and the rest of the time you're locked away, is only a very short amount of time to be interacting with people. So people are going to try and take advantage where they can. And that's one of the big differences here at Macquarie, we're living almost as small communities of 20 to 25 people and this real community feel, a brotherhood. That can work against you in most jails where Brotherhood is like gangs, but here at Macquarie its more like camaraderie

 

Unknown Speaker  33:50 

Exactly what the guys just said that I mean, once you start to spend more time with, with your fellow inmates, you become a family like, you eat together, you hang out with each other, you train with each other. So it's no difference of being at home. The only difference is you're away from your family. And the truth is you do find real mates in this place, and you end of sticking with these guys. But in this environment, you get that opportunity where in other places, you just don't as (____) said that you could be locked away for up to 6 hours. And that's just how it is unfortunately. Yeah.

 

Unknown Speaker  34:30 

I think one of the big things at Macquarie is the word respect. I think officers and inmates are like treating each other with respect. And as a result of that the culture here is certainly different from any other center that I've been to. We look after each other regardless of religion, race, the language.

 

Unknown Speaker  35:04 

Again, getting back to what you spoke about safety, you’re around all types of inmates as well. From the top down to the bottom. If we’re thinking about safety, then we’ve also got to think about those things. Most jails have gangs and that too, that gang environment. Like you’ll be walking in the yard watching over your shoulder to know, you don't know what's gonna happen like at Goulourn, Long Bay, Bathurst, every day someone's getting bashed, every week, someone's getting stabbed. You know, we're fortunate not to see that here. But at other jails that happens on a regular basis, you know, and it makes you uneasy in the yard. Yeah, even if you haven't done anything wrong, you still don't know when you’re time might come. It's just part of what it is, unfortunately, it can be over very trivial things as well. You know, like waiting for the phone, little things, like someone's jumped the phone line, they're taking someone else's spot, which has been a miscommunication over who was waiting in the line, because they only had two phones in the yard. And so everyone, puts a “knock in” they call it,  knocking, they call to get a position in line for the phone. And you know, some days would get upset over that or could be a drug issue, there could be someone steals someones food or something.  

 

 

Unknown Speaker  37:17 

Q: You know, just just following from everything that I've heard all you say, there is another question here:

how do prisoners make friends and alliances? What are the unspoken rules between inmates and I imagine from the stuff that you've already told me that when you first get in, it'd be difficult negotiating what the unspoken rules are. Or knowing what to do? How to how to conduct yourself.

 

Unknown Speaker  37:57 

It doesn't take very long to sort of work out, common sense prevails. It’s pretty much your eyes closed, and your mouth is shut.

 

Unknown Speaker  38:07 

 Number one in most prisons, it's a little bit different here. But in most prisons is your nationality. Then your religious beliefs. And also quite often the area that you come from on the outside, people go, oh you’re from my area, even if you don't know them, but you know, you know the same people. So a lot of that will form the basis of your social group, your nationality, your religion or the area you come from.

 

 

Unknown Speaker  39:07

 

Q: Following from the discussion about brotherhood and camaraderie and how you guys have to support each other and how that's really important to your well being on the inside. So one of the students asked a question, and I asked a follow up. So student question was, does that sense of community that you guys build, does that continue all the way through your time or does it change and why does it change? And then my follow up based on that was do you see yourselves staying connected with each other post release to continue that support with each other? Or is it something that you say is me being on the inside?

Unknown Speaker:

My name is (______) I could probably answer the part about staying in touch with the boys when we come out. Like I said the environment here a lot of us, pretty much like a family and, I mean, I would say probably 60% of the boys I’ve met in this place there’s no doubt I’ll catch up with them on the outside. You tend to see the good in people, yeah fair enough we’ve come to  jail it we’re labeled as one thing but people change and, and you see the change in people. Once you’re in an environment we're your with them  24 hours a day seven days a week. It's, it's different, being locked into a cell and you see them six hours a day and you see their true colors. So, I'd say that's the best way of putting it. Again, most of us probably will see one other one will get out

Unknown Speaker:

might just be worthwhile to try one more is different, explain the difference.

 

Unknown Speaker

I don’t know what you know about Macquarie, but Macquarie itself is dormitory style living. So there’s 25 of us at maximum times per pod. And it's pretty much open living here, you can just stick your head over and speak to your neighbor and the person in front of you and it's pretty you’re your never locked down. That's the difference between this jail and the other jails. You eat together you can have a barbecue together you do everything together you get to the gym together so you can have a game of squash basketball in the back of the yard. It's completely different to your normal Center.

 

Unknown Speaker 

Thank you for that I thought that was that was really insightful and really interesting I guess to hear how the role that you all play in each other's lives is really important to recognizing the good between yourselves and in yourselves.

Q: we've got a follow up if I can. And so based on that one of our students has just asked that you mentioned that you feel labeled. Does this does this anticipated feeling of being labeled when you're on the outside, when you leave, make you feel nervous in any way about leaving and coping on the outside.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Obviously everyone's gonna get nervous when they come out of jail. Obviously, that's the whole purpose of the pre release programs that Terry spoke about where once we get into C two and C three classifications we start coming out slowly like reintegrate into the community. It'll be interesting. I mean, coming from Macquarie to or going from a Macquarie to something like that will probably be easier I don't know how hard it will be for guys that are coming straight from other centers where they lock down those times, it can be different for a lot of people.

 

Unknown Speaker  4:47 

Up until fairly recently it was a big fear of mine that being labelled an ex-convict would be too much, too much to bear in that feel that I didn’t want to mix with people that I used to meet with before, or going to any line of work where they would know. We, a year ago had a visit from here, Michael (*inaudible last name), who is the secretary of justice. He was an inmate for three or four, three years I think. And he told us about, that he wouldn’t let it stand in his way, being in prison. And, and to become the secretary of justice, probably the highest position in corrective services. And he told us he just wouldn't wouldn't let it stand in his way. And it just got me to thinking, okay I’ve done prison, it’s behind me. I don't know, paid my price to society. Get on with it now. And he told me, some people aren’t going to be accepting of you. He told me that he was very surprised how many people actually were accepting of him. They think he made some mistakes. And he put those mistakes behind him and that he was just getting on with it. You’re not gonna convince everybody out there that you're worthy to be in society but you are going to convince most people that you are. So that can be a good hope, changed my attitude a little bit, to be able to face up to people that I respected and had the respect of on the outside.

 

Unknown Speaker  7:34 

Just a little more there, one of the things that stuck out that he said was, for giving people a second go. One of the things that he said was a vision for giving people a second go.

 

Unknown Speaker

Q: Do you feel like prison has changed you and in what ways and has it changed you, in positive ways. Because you spoke of some people seeing this, seeing this as an experience that made them more determined to succeed when they got out, Do you feel that it has changed you?

 

Unknown Speaker:

I think everyone individually is different. And you are upbringing and what not, could be a big service to that. I’m sure all the boys feel differently.

 

Unknown Speaker:

It also depends on the, on the correction centre that your at. Here you have an opportunity for education, you can work. So you have that chance. We as at other corrections you don’t.

 

Unknown Speaker:

It’s the environment, 100%.

 

Unknown Speaker:

I guess once, once we come to jail, obviously, you’ll see two different parts. You’ll see guys that keep coming out and keep coming back in. And you tend to see that with the guys doing small sentences, and then you tend to see other guys that have done the big sentences, where they come to jail, and you obviously reflect on everything you've done in life. And a lot of us have families, we’ve got kids, got wives, you tend to reflect and say look I’ve offended and how that’s effected my family.  I guess you have to think about that because you’ve got a lot of time in this place and if you're not gonna reflect on, we make mistakes, we're human, we all understand that, if you’re not going to reflect on it in here then, you don't want to reflect on it outside. So the reality is, as one of the boys said everyone's circumstances will be different but there is no doubt in the world that every single person in this place sits down, whether it's five minutes in the middle of the night and says to themselves, you know, this is what I did and how am I gonna fix it and you just want to move forward. You don’t want to come out and be judged

 

Unknown Speaker:

the guys that are doing the longest time, are probably the most disadvantaged. At least that was before Macquarie came along, you get a very low classification, at about three years out from your release date. So if you're doing 10 years jail. You got seven years of maximum security, and three years of low security, low security. If you're doing 20 years jail, you've got 17 years of maximum security, and still three years, minimum security. I think that might be one of the reasons why people that are doing shorter sentences are more likely to be coming and going. The problem is, at maximum security for 10 years, or 20 years. In most jails max security means you get six hours a day in a yard, and the rest locked in a cell.  Probably with a normal person. 18 hours living in a toilet, cause that’s where the toilet is, 18 hours for all intents and purposes living with a stranger. 10 years like that, 15 years 20 years like that. What kind of people would you expect are going to be released back into society? Disassociated from family, fearful, no connection to real connection to people.  Macquarie’s different, there’s no lock in, it’s a big dormitory, you got access to a yard outside where you'd see stars, till nine o'clock at night. Telephone to your family, six in the morning until 10 at night. Everybody works every day. Everyone does programs or some form of study 1, 2, 3, 4 days a week. It's an environment where you can connect people, and connect with your family. Big difference, until something like a classification system changes, where if you're doing 20 years and you’ve got good behaviour for three years, five years, whatever, you're not punished by being kept in maximum security sort of frame of mind. Living in a toilet for 18 hours a day. I don't know if any of your students would imagine that. A toilet, a bloody toilet for 18 hours a day. With a stranger. And that 6 hours your out in the yard that’s when standovers can happen, you’re worried about getting in loud for a telephone. And just as, as my friend mentioned before, miscommunication over the line to the telephone, you're at risk of getting stabbed with a homemade shiv, not the cleanest of weapons, it's just frightening, really.

 

Unknown Speaker  15:31 

Q: Thanks for giving us that realistic depiction of what goes on. I have a couple of other questions, and just following from what you said about Macquarie being different. Is the relationship of the inmates with the prison officers different at Macquarie?

 

Unknown Speaker:

100% They treat us with respect, they get respect back. It works both ways.

 

Unknown Speaker:

The yards that I told you about that you’re in six hours a day. No officer will walk through that yard, on their own or two or three at a time, they won’t walk into that yard, most of those yards. Because that's controlled by inmates. And here an officer, we pass each other in the hallways, or come in and chat with you in the pods,  they’re not afraid to do that, you couldn’t do that in long bay, Bathurst, other places, where those officers will come into the yard with members of what are called squad. They’re a specialized team. If there's a fight that needs to be broken up quite often in long bay there’s guys as officers on a wall with rifles, and if there's a fight in the yard, those rifles will come out. I don’t know if they've got rubber bullets or real bullets, I have never wanted to find out, but that fight will run its course. However that course will lead until a squat can be assembled to come in and break break it up. Okay, so here are the offices don’t have that, that fear to just walk normally amongst normal people.

 

Unknown Speaker:

 It’s a really relaxed and it's really easy going compared to other jails, where you’re on edge all the time, from officers or other inmates. But at this jail you’re actually relaxed easy going. You can go about your day without issues with other crims or officers.

 

Unknown Speaker: 

If I can just add one point of view from an officer working in this centre. It goes both ways, it's actually really nice to come into this jail and we know that these guys have done something wrong and they're in our care but there's no reason to treat them any differently than any other human, so we can treat them with respect and we get that back. And it's actually fantastic because we don't have that angst between inmates and staff. It's a very different work environment for the staff as well.

 

Unknown Speaker:

If I can add to that, when we were sentenced, our liberty was taken away from us. And that is a punishment. It shouldn't be anything else. In lots of the other centers there is additional punishment. And that's from officers as well. At Macquarie you can pretty much live your life as you would on the outside. So if you want, if you treat this place like a community, you can contribute to that community the best way you see fit. We happen to have different courses, there’s a cafe as well. And the boys can get work credentials at the end of it, which means that there are job opportunities that they can walk into. The facility here is certainly, different. And you could see it that amongst all the inmates there is just that repour, and caring, and it goes both ways. Even the officers, I’m certainly not afraid to shake an officer's hand. That's one of the unspoken rules, but its just one of those things that you feel at this centre as though the management is genuine in their approach to things they're straightforward with us. And you can see how the inmates have responded.

 

Unknown Speaker:

We are a product of our environment. Bottom line, especially for the guys that are doing a long time, you're in this traditional centers where you're constantly anxiety, fear. You can't expect us to be better when we come back out. Was this environment significantly different.

Traditional treatment between interactions between inmates and officers has always been confrontational too punitive, here its different. So, yeah.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: Thank you so much, she'll, and since I've just had questions. I might roll a couple of questions into one. Someone has asked what sort of programs would you like to see available. And, I think something that fits nicely into what everyone said about Macquarie. If you could change one thing about the way the prison system is run day to day what would you change. And do you believe that other centers should be run like Macquarie?

 

Unknown Speaker:

I can make a quick comment there. One of the problems is the perception of the community. And that's a big thing and I think the media plays a big part of all of that. If that can be addressed to some extent, and community itself realize that we’re human beings, and there is a human rights involved, that in the end if you continue to treat inmates as nothing else, then you're not going to get human beings when they are released. So, I think, in a nutshell, I think that's one of the things that I would like to see change is the perception on the outside of what inmates are like.

 

Unknown Speaker:

What’s the point of sending us to jail? Is it punishment or rehabilitation? You’re not going to get rehabilitation in the other centres. If they’re more designed like Macquarie, then you’d get rehabilitated prisoners. Because we’ve got things to do, we’ve got goals to achieve, programs to support those goals, etc.

 

Unknown Speaker:

There are several types of courses here that we can do, some of us have tried to do University bachelors. Its very hard to do all that in other centres. So we need more centres like Macquarie if you want rehabilitated prisoners and not just thugs

 

Unknown Speaker:

It might sound a bit harsh, but men and women, they feel like they don’t have any other option

 

Unknown Speaker:

Would anyone like to comment on the programs? Like drugs and alcohol etc

Unknown Speaker:

that comes back down to the environment, you know, dont get me wrong this, there's a lot of boys in jail that probably do use drugs and then you've got a lot that don't and you've got a mate that uses, you try your best to help him to get off whatever he's doing, you know one day he's going to come out and you always remind him, mate, do you want to come out of the problem, or do you want to get rid of the problem. Because your coming back out to your family and it's just, it's a it's a revolving door for a lot of boys because they haven't got that, that peer support but I guess we get allowed programs he like equips and, and so on. I mean, funny I say that I have to do one of the programs myself,  because in my own eyes I was like, what am I doing in this class, but by setting it and believe it or not, like, these things are some of the issues that some of the boys have. I was actually happy I sat in on it because you know what some of our problems are very small compared to other people, and you can help those sort of boys out, simply by bringing them on board and saying lets go train tomorrow. Let's catch and, basically, they tend to start breaking that bad habit. And that's what you need.

 

Unknown Speaker:

This is the first time in 11 years I’ve gone 6 months clean so, I’m proud of that.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Just basic things like having access to a gym here, it helps break the cycle.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Plus there's a lot of programs here that do deal with issues like drug addiction, domestic violence. Violence anger issues. That helps a lot.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Just remember, at other centres, a lot of these guys have issues, they jump on drugs to escape, because you're in an environment, they're reaching out for help. Whether it's self medication. Don't judge everyone’s got their own story.

 

Unknown Speaker

Your stuck in a place with nothing to do, so what are you gonna do? Jump on the drugs.  Whereas here you got gym in the morning. Seven o'clock in the morning nearly got programmed to get back have a feed, you’ve got work at 11 o'clock to four o'clock (*inaudible)

 

Unknown Speaker: 

It all comes back down to routine I guess. When you have a routine and your kept busy then, I guess, you tend to walk away from things that you shouldn’t be doing.

 

Unknown Speaker:

That’s why I think this correctional centre at least, Macquarie is working

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: Okay. So, I, you know, I think you've answered a question. Another question that we had on  what programs have been provided within the center and do you find these helpful for your personal well being personal development. And I think you've, you've pretty much touched on that does anyone else want to expand on that?

 

Unknown Speaker:

Being in a positive environment makes you want to change makes you think about change, and you've got the good boys doing the right thing that makes you think about things a bit more deeply so in yourself. How do you want people to perceive you. Do you want to be perceived as being a drug user always. But when, speaking for myself, I was a heavy drug user, and people used to judge me on that, instead of me being a good bloke you know. I’ve changed a bit in the last 6 months you know, like I’ve made some significant changes in my life because I’ve got a good environment around me and good people around me and that helps me to achieve that.

 

Unknown Speaker:

 On the outside, drug drug use is an ugly spiral. It's, it's, 10 times worse in jail because they because of the boredom, and there's nothing, nothing to keep you occupied. That's the difference of at Macquarie. That you are, you can be busy from 6 am until 5pm, and after 5pm you’ve got an active social life. Like cooking together, cards, there’s a whole lot of things. So that spiral is broken, can be broken. You’ve got to be thinking about people who take drugs on the outside, its so easy for them to break that spiral. Its very hard on the inside.

 

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: Okay, thank you so much for your insights. We've got a few for questions that go off in different directions. And these are sort of to do with our there's one about being inside prison, and that is just the representation of prison communicated by media depict an accurate representation of reality. So that's, that's one question. And then all of the others are about post release, can you. Does anyone want to take that one.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Most of those issues are created from the outside. Like you know ghost writers and what not, who try to give the insiders perspective. Or people watching those shows or those programs. Buts its from the outside not the insider. A lot of the time its way off the mark.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Jails like school. When you come into schools, you have to find your group. So you have your popular students or, its similar to school.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: there are other questions now and I'm conscious that we've got 15 minutes left, it's, it's kind of flown by. What are your plans when you're released and what, what are you doing now to work towards those

 

Unknown Speaker:

Personally myself I’ve kept coming back in the last 10 years, I’ve only lasted a few months out each time. The one thing that’s held me back is my driver’s licence. I’ve been disqualified for 21 years. And that's one thing I'm trying to rectify at the moment, to get in place to when I do get released in four years’ time.  Because that’s going to change my life, because I’m a tradesman, so to be a tradesman without a driver’s licence was always very difficult and I always fell back on old ways, and bad ways I should say, that happens. But now if I can get that rectified before being released it changes my life. I can go back to being a tradesman and doing the right thing.

 

Unknown Speaker:

I'm trying to study bookkeeping at the moment when I get out of just like getting back to my family and my old life. No offense but there's not many of you blokes I want to hang out with when I leave. I want to leave my time in prison behind me. Learn as much work from it as much as I can. And a very big respect for these guys, living with integrity and honesty here. But when I, when I leave here, I'm gonna leave it behind. And I'm hoping the skills I pick up within my bookkeeping accounting course will just help me with my family business out there and that kind of thing.

 

Unknown Speaker:

A few of us are still waiting for the platform to be available for us to do higher learning. There are some of us that either want to finish uni or start uni

 

Unknown Speaker:

I never worked a day in my life outside. But this time I’m doing a traineeship for engineering, so hopefully I'll finish that December, January, and I’ve got two years left on my apprenticeship so that’s what I’m going to do when I get home, have a crack at it. Because I don’t really want to come back again.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Q: Moving on to the next question. So just some of you outlined some, you know, pretty practical things that you need in order to, you know, achieve your goals when you're released. what support does corrections provide in these areas. So, you know, post release, perhaps?

 

Unknown Speaker:

I know with me trying to get my drivers license back, the salvo’s help me, and western community legal, they contact me once a month to try and put an application through the courts to try and get an offence quashed. If it wasn’t for that help I probably wouldn’t be getting it done. I’d still be in jail with a disqualification next to my name and things would be a lot harder.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Honestly, it's quite limited because once you leave you fall into the parole board, my mate just got released, and it was getting his car insurance. And did you know you can’t get car insurance if you have a conviction? Some suppliers won’t give you insurance.

 

Unknown Speaker:

I guess a lot of us here as well, really. I don’t know if some of the boys have been out on there c2 c3’s, a lot of us are obviously coming down from longer sentences and would know exactly how pre release works so reality is we're still down to what working it out ourselves over the next few years when we get there.  You wouldn't think it would be. It's like jumping through hoops. You want to try and get to a farm jail as soon you can. You want to try and get out and work and do something like you don't want to be sitting in between walls for the last couple of years of your sentence so I guess the sooner they have us out is when the test comes with everyone and you see exactly what you do.

 

Unknown Speaker:

 I was on a C3 2012/2013 and my mate who I was doing work release with at that particular time he got released in November 2012 2013, and he's now the supervisor of that company. So that's something positive in that regard.

 

Unknown Speaker

Q: Has anyone had any experience of community based orders. And do you feel they were effective. And what would you change about community orders.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Is that like parole or probation or more like ICO?

 

Unknown Speaker:

Parole can be a part of it yeah

 

Unknown Speaker

Where I’m from they wanna see you constantly and like if you’re five minutes late they’re writing you up and stuff. And there could be a huge range of stuff that could be going on in your life, like with your kids and stuff, like you just got out of jail and they want you to be at their place with hats on, you know.  They could at least ring and say Oh, are you ready to come tonight, or would you like me to come to you.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Yeah. They need to be more flexible. More relaxed, in some areas I guess. You’ve got people working and they still want you to come in and see them weekly up until some period of time, then they get a bit more relaxed after. I suppose you've got to prove yourself. You've got to prove yourself trustworthy so it goes both ways. But when you first start out you gotta work hard to earn their trust, they don’t believe you're going to be at work all the time, they think that you’re going to stuff up.

 

 

Unknown:

I think from what I've heard there is that expectation that you also many guys have found themselves that they are going to stuff up. And the parole people think there;s an expectation that they’re going to stuff up. And these guys that come from quite from a rigidly set up day, awake at 6, muster, or education at 8, work at 12. And when you're on our side, you have all of a sudden, don't have alarms to wake them up, get them to where they’ve gotta be. I think there's gonna be some flexibility. On behalf of the system out there on their expectations of these guys. Yeah.

 

Q: We did get another broad question, which I think you guys have sort of touched on in different ways because you've talked about the different cultures in different prisons and how much that environment impacts on you. But we had a question on the discussion board where someone asked really broadly Do you think prison is the answer? And I'm just going to lay that out and see if anyone wants to speak to this.

Unknown Speaker:

no of course not, it's not.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Well yeah, you're right.

 

Unknown Speaker:

In what sense

 

Unknown Speaker:

You make and break societies rules, it is what it is, the rule is if you break the rules, you go to prison. So, is it the answer or not. I think in places like Macquarie then it may well be the answer. But the prison system as it has been around for the past hundred years, you keep doing the same thing, and expecting a different result is definitely the definition of crazy. It's still doing the same thing. The great thing about a Macquarie is breaking that mould and doing something different. And the attitude of all the guys here is remember these guys are all coming from different backgrounds from the most privileged to the least privileged in society. There’s a is a good cross, cross section of guys here and Macquarie has broken the mould, how we interact with each other, and we interact with officers, how we get on with their lives and our expectations for what, what we can expect every day and how that’s going to effect us when we get out. The way the justice system has worked for I don’t know 150 years. It just doesn't seem to have worked.  The statistics aren’t in on this place, but currently anecdotally there’s big milestones being broken with the guys here. So, his jail, the answer is, what we've got here is the best answer we've got so far I think.

 

Unknown Speaker:

I think they built Macquarie on the, on the foundation of the European style system

 

Unknown Speaker:

It was built in a response to a bed crisis

 

Unknown Speaker:

You start to realize that there's actually a higher volume of people coming into jail these days and even the sentences are getting bigger and bigger. So the reality is it's community expectation they say like when you go to court and you get sentence the judge says well I have to meet community expectations and this is what I'm going to give you as a sentence. And I think the community has to understand that there's certain boys that come to jail from a once off mistake they made a mistake once they end up doing 15-20 years now. In the long run, was that 15-20 years worth it when that persons has destroyed his family and whatever. But  there's certain boys you can you know you could release them right now, and they will never ever do the wrong thing again but the problem is, how do you explain it to the community. Like, have an officer here tell me I could pick half of you guys, I can guarantee you, at least half of us could be sent to the farm across the road to work and wouldn't have a problem. But how do you do it and this comes back to the community expectations.

 

Unknown Speaker:

We know the community wants people locked up. Given no privileges. And rehabilitated, and then let out. It doesn't work that way. Community probably doesn’t know that they want places like this, where the inmates are  given privileges We’ve got it great here There's no doubt about it, and great section of the media would be horrified that we're given what they would call all these freedoms. But the opposite of this is every other jail, which is not working for getting guys ready to be put into the community. It's not working at all it's institutionalizing them. And as I said, the community doesn't know that these places like Macquaurie exist, society doesn't mean places like Macquarie. And I think the more that can be put out, put out there the quicker things will change.

 

Unknown Speaker:

You asked a question about whether prison is the answer. There's one area that I feel strongly about and that’s the area of drugs. I don't believe that prison should be the answer. I believe it should be treated as a health issue, it will release, a lot of money that's tied up in the system. There was one report in the telegraph. Some years ago that cost $350 per day to inmate. The amount of money we could save simply by making drugs, a health issue. It will stop I think the trafficking, and all the rest of it, and that those funds could go towards hospitals or schools within the community and here I think I feel strongly about that should be looked at.

 

Unknown Speaker:

The systems don't work. The population keeps increasing. But with the Europeans they tried something different

 

 

Unknown Speaker:

I'm still bewildered they talk about a war on drugs. And you all of the evidence points that they’re not going to win any war on drugs. I think it would be a brave politician that would change that war on drugs. And he might only last one term, that Prime Minister or, or politician, but he would be remembered in history. Unfortunately, everybody knows, politicians that are working towards a election are only thinking about votes, and so the the war on drugs will continue. The farce will continue. And you'll get prisons that get filled up and dehumanize people that just have a problem and need some help. It’s the very definition of a vicious circle.

 

Unknown Speaker:

Thank you for your insights on (End of Recording and Q&A).